Shift happens in der Industrie: Kreislaufwirtschaft, Skalierung

00:00:08: Welcome to Shift Happens.

00:00:10: Today we have the pleasure to speak with Kostas from Unaterra and talk about circular economy, how to optimize processes in his book The Disruption Fallacy.

00:00:27: Maybe before we get into everything, We love to talk about sustainability.

00:00:31: Circularity.

00:00:32: you can share a little bit About your background and what got You To be?

00:00:36: where are today?

00:00:38: Okay So that's history as late As possible in the history relevant point.

00:00:44: so to introduce myself My name is costas papa economy.

00:00:47: I have A long Greek Name.

00:00:49: i'm actually Dutch.

00:00:50: i don't even speak greek so i Don't technically Even know how to pronounce my own name which Is a Little Bit Embarrassing.

00:00:57: I'm almost fifty-three years old, live in The Hague and the Netherlands where i've spent well over twenty years.

00:01:04: And my career leading up to Where I Am Now with Munaterra, investment fund has always revolved around innovation.

00:01:13: I have been working for almost thirty year now and first ten years were very much as an engineer developing products developing production environments and just making sure that you could say things get made, they're designed to end.

00:01:29: It's very much the domain of nuts-and-bolts where The Real World happens not a world of storytelling.

00:01:34: Yeah

00:01:35: And sort of it is a lot of vision but not a lot narrative.

00:01:38: maybe That's an interesting way to put my second career Is I guess we are really.

00:01:44: the seeds were planted for what has become Una Terra which is innovating in consumer goods an innovation consulting business specifically for fast-moving consumer goods, which the business was called Happen.

00:01:57: Which became Happengroup and we grew it to a global business over the course of about ten or twelve years running more than two thousand innovation projects with like literally every supermarket brand.

00:02:08: you can imagine And I guess well in that period i also met Luca my fellow founder at Unaterra We come out of the world of industry, making things and making things in mass markets.

00:02:25: And there are some truths in that world... ...of how to succeed at doing new thing which we carried across into Unaterra.

00:02:33: So as you can imagine when your basically doing supermarket stuff It's all about new laundry detergents, new toothpastes New cough syrups Very mundane mature categories.

00:02:45: Yeah

00:02:47: I guess even now In this new space I'm in, which is all about fancy startups and scale-ups.

00:02:52: And everything is a lot sexier... Yeah?

00:02:54: ...I think what's underestimated on the domain of how hard it actually is to do stuff on supermarket shelves You need be really specific.

00:03:02: What are your improvements you're bringing into consumers' lives?

00:03:05: Because basically you have to entice them To stop using whatever they use now And come back with your product or brand Instead While at the same time and doing it in a way you can actually make money on.

00:03:16: Because the margins are razor thin, In those domains.

00:03:20: And sorry bit of preamble but that's what we've taken into Unatera which We set up well as fund um...and uh..we invest in circular economy in scale ups.

00:03:32: So where technology is pretty much clear The You could say target audience whether its a B to b solution Where by-the-way the bulk were looking at happens or B to C or more let's say end-user focused, who it is going to was also clear and that very much a question of how to scale.

00:03:51: And how do you know in the way which doesn't break the bank?

00:03:54: Yeah

00:03:55: That's bit of long answer for your questions.

00:03:57: Well

00:03:58: thank you so much.

00:03:59: You mentioned there are some truths too like consumer goods market.

00:04:03: what would you say these truths are How did carry them over into The more sustainability focus lens at Unaterra?

00:04:12: yeah I guess the shocking truth is whether you're doing something with a sustainability purpose or not, it isn't what's going to define your success in market.

00:04:24: Your first and foremost factor is that product needs to be desirable And this very easy to imagine when thinking of consumer products as in, ooh it needs to be so desirable.

00:04:35: People are willing to switch and the reason for that is uh... The people who were willing to switched for a sustainable solution.

00:04:44: there's only small minority.

00:04:46: very few people want to do them.

00:04:50: actually quite funny case if you think of Nutella.

00:04:54: yeah he has the chocolate spread people have known for decades really quiet bad because its full sugar

00:05:03: Palm oil and

00:05:03: palm oil.

00:05:04: not so good for the planet.

00:05:05: Yeah,

00:05:05: but imagine even just like all the sugar which makes you fat And sort of kills your destroys your teeth.

00:05:10: that was not enough to make people stop using it.

00:05:12: So how could you ever hope that they're gonna?

00:05:15: Stop using it because of the palm oil.

00:05:16: It's just not going to happen yeah.

00:05:18: But the people who are basically triggered by palm oil friendly solutions have Changed and swapped their products.

00:05:24: They've moved out of Nutella a long time

00:05:26: ago.

00:05:27: What you left with is the mass market.

00:05:29: Who do want to convert?

00:05:30: we'll have to come up something better.

00:05:32: You'll have to come up with something which is at least parity, it's the term you use on taste or price and everything.

00:05:39: And then they might make a change into something more sustainable I guess in consumer products.

00:05:44: its easy to imagine but exactly same as true industrial product where we could say that bulk of opportunity.

00:05:50: if you can create let us say sugar-products or sweetener product Which way?

00:05:54: better for environment?

00:05:55: or palm oil solution like just mentioned.

00:05:59: You know your product is going to end up in thousands of other products and you can get the scale you need.

00:06:04: But even there, if there's regulation pushing for a more sustainable solution maybe that'll help you a little bit.

00:06:13: but if it twice as expensive no one will swap.

00:06:17: because particularly an industrial environment switching a product... The cost has to be paid by its own.

00:06:27: So you need a performance improvement, cost-improvement and all these things.

00:06:31: I think the maturing of this space over the past few years because it's relatively new domain has finally started not with buying businesses but delivery business of these innovations.

00:06:48: they've started to see that is only way to succeed.

00:06:51: otherwise it's a charity and you have to almost like sponsor your product being bought, but then you're never going to have the continuity that we need.

00:06:59: So again another long answer is this okay with these long answers?

00:07:02: Yes perfect wonderful!

00:07:04: Do you maybe have an example or use case where such as such a switch has been shown to be successful.

00:07:12: Yeah,

00:07:13: well I guess our lucky shot was the very first investment Luca and i did together which um it wasn't in a business called Pulpex who do paper bottles.

00:07:23: so this is now almost four years ago already.

00:07:26: okay but it was... ...I guess a case where something looks and feels good.

00:07:32: you only later on realize really why it was.

00:07:37: So Pulpex does paper bottles, originally mainly for beverages.

00:07:43: And they were I guess coming out of a pilot phase and we're looking like the last round investment before really doing their scaling.

00:07:50: Looker had heard about this so he comes from background.

00:07:52: in packaging development at mega scale... ...and i knew of Pulpex through one my clients still in second career which was basically supplying Diageo big spirits

00:08:05: producer

00:08:08: for their Johnny Walker limited editions, beautiful paper bottles.

00:08:13: Now here's the interesting thing.

00:08:14: if you... Well I guess even just think of paper bottles You're probably already thinking okay so how do they make that liquid proof?

00:08:22: So let us say had a reasonable solution to it.

00:08:26: What we might also realize is again four years ago If wanted to invest in paper bottles there were like forty-fifty different startups who could invest.

00:08:34: I think what is interesting about Pulpix, if you would take a look at it with like an academic view... ...you'd think that's nowhere near good enough yet.

00:08:45: It can run through the recycling stream for paper and will go okay but not compostable.

00:08:50: Yeah!

00:08:51: That's

00:08:51: quite hard to make all these considerations which makes it seem not ideal.

00:08:58: What Luca and I saw was well hold on there one thing they have going for them.

00:09:01: You could fill them out in normal filling line

00:09:03: Okay.

00:09:04: Yes,

00:09:04: that's very easy to say.

00:09:05: yes too so

00:09:06: you didn't have to sweat.

00:09:07: switch an existing system That some place.

00:09:09: yeah exactly and that's the.

00:09:11: The beauty I guess when you're looking for investing in circular economy Is this is not about something new?

00:09:18: That needs to be built.

00:09:19: it's about making the existing economy more circular which means all the modes of operating are Already there.

00:09:25: people know how to buy things in this space.

00:09:27: People know How To produce Things In This Space.

00:09:30: So a filling line is like the most standard You could say part of a production equipment in any consumer goods environment.

00:09:39: So if you then come with the solution which says, you need to actually buy new one

00:09:45: or create a new machine altogether?

00:09:46: It's not going to happen.

00:09:48: these are expensive lines like even small company like an SME company somewhere will need to invest one two three million In a good filling line Which means once it is there that what they're gonna use.

00:10:00: But again if every sort of business on earth has one, why not use that to scale?

00:10:05: Why not optimize your more circular solution... ...to work on the existing infrastructure.

00:10:09: So this is what we saw and also you could say the thesis I guess it's a proper word for us going forward.. ..is let's look for circular solutions that respect old infrastructure because the old infrastructure might be old but its definitely big And it's the path to scale.

00:10:28: Yeah, and this is true of course for packaging as you can imagine but also true for food ingredients For raw materials or anything that runs through all these bazillions and bazillions Of different material streams where each in every one of them Is an opportunity

00:10:41: yeah?

00:10:43: These systems have shown and proven to be successful In The capitalist market in a way of working.

00:10:51: so why not Repurpose them in a way and make them better more sustainable?

00:10:56: Exactly, exactly.

00:10:57: More circular.

00:10:58: now I wonder how this connects basically to your podcast which says shift happens.

00:11:01: Yes But i guess an interesting thing is the reality.

00:11:06: again speaking of what we've taken from The consumer goods innovation world into This World Is.

00:11:12: In order To succeed in Consumer Goods You try to change as little As possible.

00:11:17: you just Try to Change the right things yeah.

00:11:19: And Now coming into this, I guess venture capital environment.

00:11:23: what we've realized?

00:11:24: if you look at the narrative and the way venture capitalists tend to look it's the opposite.

00:11:29: they're looking for as dramatic as possible changes.

00:11:31: Changes.

00:11:32: many things is possible.

00:11:33: come in with a bang

00:11:35: yeah because then your stand out or you'll look revolutionary.

00:11:38: there are also these sort of winner-takes all philosophy which comes from software where actually can't even do that.

00:11:47: It's slightly easier to create something that grabs a bigger piece of the pie, where such vertical integration simply doesn't exist in the physical goods world.

00:11:57: If you look at these trousers I'm wearing there are probably anywhere between fifty and hundred different suppliers who have touched this from coming out of a cotton field or chemical plant through me wearing them now... You're not going to own it!

00:12:12: But each and every one of those suppliers represents where circularity can be introduced.

00:12:17: And that's super cool, because it is an opportunity for us to win this.

00:12:21: For sure!

00:12:23: In terms of circularity do you see the biggest lever change in consumer goods and packaging since we are such a convenience packaging-driven society now?

00:12:38: Well... It definitely has most experience as a team.

00:12:41: so its when we look first typically a space where there's a lot of new regulation coming in because it is very visible, which I guess politicians and regulators love.

00:12:54: And also the space with huge amounts of standardization.

00:12:58: so if you do that one place then somewhere else.

00:13:02: It all exists economies existing systems.

00:13:06: So its not necessarily hard to figure out to play, and sort of what the ugly bits are that we want change.

00:13:14: It does make it hard come up with a truly credible solution because its very easy.

00:13:18: say let's use seaweed cause sounds great for new packaging or

00:13:24: food ingredient

00:13:26: but is very hard now with DN here exploring algae for example in pharmaceuticals.

00:13:33: so can be done I guess cleared itself out a little bit and cleaned herself up over the past three or four years.

00:13:43: with this industry maturing, or circular economy maturing is the ones who had fantasy projects have all died.

00:13:51: And what's left?

00:13:51: And what is applicable and scalable as well?

00:13:55: yeah The ones that understand really the domain they're playing in actually how small their part Is.

00:14:01: Yeah They are still around.

00:14:02: Are there interesting ones?

00:14:04: Okay I think when I interviewed you for our short format, Mike For Tomorrow.

00:14:10: I also asked how would define circular economy?

00:14:13: Maybe we can go back and give us your take on it or under the lens of Unaterra

00:14:30: Let me give you a slightly longer version of it.

00:14:33: But what I already mentioned, is about understanding the current economy in particular material and energy streams but particularly materials going through supply chains between literally being taken from the ground or created somewhere into a product that serves a particular purpose And finding ways across all those little milestones where there's something which you can improve from a circularity point of view as in either using less energy or Less material Or making sure that the material that is left over Can be reused and brought back into that system.

00:15:08: Yeah, some form or other And I guess them across That principle there are probably three areas where we look.

00:15:18: one Is at the very start which is let's say production of raw materials?

00:15:22: Okay ensuring these materials have indeed a more effective way of delivering what they're supposed to deliver while using less energy and less material.

00:15:30: That's probably also where the bulk of opportunity is, because this indeed raw materials that can go into these thousands other products.

00:15:36: The

00:15:37: building blocks

00:15:37: so-to speak... Exactly!

00:15:38: The building block, ingredients going in builds on materials, ingredient recipes etc.

00:15:45: Then there are catalysts which could be chemical catalysts or software catalyst.

00:15:49: So those things might participate in process but are not, say consumed in a particular process.

00:15:58: But they do improve the process from a circularity point of view.

00:16:01: and then there is probably the smallest domain as end user products

00:16:04: which

00:16:05: really where everything comes together at tail-end that will be often about an end product has not only cleaned up supply chain before it also found way to maybe take back some other products put into market.

00:16:17: yeah bring them back into let's say regeneration or reuse.

00:16:23: for

00:16:24: So you would say in terms of like business sectors for a circular economy industry and production is the biggest.

00:16:32: yeah, that's where with

00:16:33: the biggest potential.

00:16:34: probably Because it's also where most stuff happens.

00:16:38: That just ends up with a thing After after servicing its purpose just goes into some kind of waste

00:16:47: processing

00:16:47: stream.

00:16:48: So it's where the gains are easiest to find.

00:16:51: And I guess, well like what we talked about before in the consumer environment It has the highest sort of cycle

00:16:57: speed.

00:16:58: Yeah

00:16:58: Like if you do this in a built-in environment You might need to wait fifty years Before The product comes back.

00:17:05: But If look at fashion or anything you find on supermarket Well probably that will generate some waste Within six months Or even much faster and whatever you can win during that process with a very short life cycle because the numbers are so big.

00:17:24: You get big impact,

00:17:25: yeah.

00:17:25: Is there another innovation apart from paper text which got really excited lately?

00:17:32: Well I could tell about two.

00:17:34: we've invested in?

00:17:35: Sure yes please.

00:17:37: So one is called Gray Parrot Which was exciting for us as it's our first time Well trying to build a fund.

00:17:46: Yes,

00:17:46: we didn't even have the fun.

00:17:47: so it was.

00:17:48: that wasn't necessarily the cleanest of processes okay?

00:17:52: We pulled it through.

00:17:54: So great parrot is a business specific example the catalyst mm-hmm, so they quite dramatically improve the efficacy of waste.

00:18:03: sorting

00:18:04: Okay

00:18:05: and where they've sort of pegged their flag or peg their colors to start in plastics recycling.

00:18:11: so if you look at how waste is Processed or recycled is you go through a number of steps where?

00:18:17: You basically sort in a finer and finer distinction, so They've Basically start they start at the point.

00:18:24: Where you know everything that is passing through The let's literally on the conveyor belt.

00:18:28: okay plastic Okay probably packaging plastic.

00:18:31: So there's no lets say bricks or pieces of paper Left

00:18:34: throw software.

00:18:36: well That is often done manually, believe it or not.

00:18:39: But just imagine you have this conveyor belt passing through like five meters a second or even faster.

00:18:45: What you want as a waste sorting facility Is... You could say two things.

00:18:51: Either you want A vision system Digital system of some kind To help you do the final step Of sorting Even better So that different types of plastics are properly sorted because what that allows you to do is create a better purity at the very tail end, and that means you can resell it at higher price.

00:19:11: And upcycle as well?

00:19:13: Exactly!

00:19:13: Because then goes back in form of some feedstock into...you could say..as new raw material or just want know what are quality.

00:19:23: I actually have right now for same reason because again if only manual sorting No one's going to be able to respond manually toward your analysis, but at least you'll know the quality of

00:19:33: them.

00:19:33: Yeah

00:19:34: Now here's a thing.

00:19:36: Systems like this exist.

00:19:37: they've existed for very long time But they tend to be very expensive.

00:19:41: So there their based on very complicated let say lighting systems with like infrared lighting.

00:19:48: They're basically like anywhere between two and three hundred thousand euros to install Which means if you can afford installing?

00:19:54: One of those on your lines yeah You have won.

00:19:59: So the Gray Parrot solution is a little smarter.

00:20:01: It has very simple camera and lighting system, just like you would find in any sort of consumer camera but what it connects to an AI vision system which recognizes... so instead trying to analyze what kind of plastic that is through lighting I recognize this bottle.

00:20:21: And then look up at how it was.

00:20:24: this system costs like five grand.

00:20:27: So what that does is it kind of democratizes the technology because you can put a couple across your sorting lines, so quality you achieve is parity or higher at much lower price but also generates data from original producers which are packaging companies

00:20:48: who

00:20:49: want to have.

00:20:51: So right now if you are like, I don't know Pepsi Cola and your being fined because you're producing too much single-use plastic.

00:20:57: Yes

00:20:57: You need to prove how much of it is recycled.

00:21:00: imagine.

00:21:00: How would you do that manually?

00:21:01: That's a very

00:21:02: expensive

00:21:03: process.

00:21:04: Yeah But if you can call Gray Parrot and just say okay so many our bottles X Y & Z have been Recycled.

00:21:10: they could make an estimate based on what we've seen passed through their system.

00:21:14: super exciting

00:21:15: One question, if there is like no logo on the piece of plastic they find...

00:21:19: This stuff was intelligent.

00:21:20: So it can even sort of a smashed up piece of bottle?

00:21:22: Yeah It will still make good estimate.

00:21:24: Wow okay A good say weighted.

00:21:26: guess what originally was.

00:21:29: And then does AI get trained just by pattern recognition and seeing over-and-over again or do they feed information into...?

00:21:36: So originaly we had lot training.

00:21:38: that's

00:21:38: happening

00:21:38: when we got involved three years ago.

00:21:40: now I think two and half million packaging types in the system, so I'm sure that is now double or triple.

00:21:47: And where has it been implemented and applied?

00:21:50: Across

00:21:50: Europe started originally in the UK Okay...and they're reaching a point because this all about footprint as you can imagine.

00:21:56: They are now reaching a points that reselling data becomes an interesting sort of next step not just making let's say CFOs these individual waste centres excited but really getting secondary market to work around them.

00:22:11: So what i think shows you can create a better product which beats the current solution, still respects again the infrastructure because it's not about building new waste centres or even new robotic arms.

00:22:25: Using what we have and making it more efficient?

00:22:27: This is putting in

00:22:28: an easier set of eyes with a better brain on this system.

00:22:31: Yeah

00:22:31: And then get to gains that your looking for.

00:22:33: You could say the process was more circular That's for sure.

00:22:37: improving recyclability

00:22:39: Exciting.

00:22:40: So thats why its exciting.

00:22:43: Yeah.

00:22:43: You mentioned democratizing, how important do you think democratizing solutions is in terms of advancing sustainability and impact?

00:22:53: Well I think it's a feature to look for or an attribute that may be better word when considering what are interesting companies to back Is have they found the way?

00:23:04: use some form?

00:23:05: smart technology could very new but also older But make benefit accessible to more people, to more industries.

00:23:14: And if you think through time like I think of any innovation over the past two hundred years coming into either business hands or consumers' hands it is always about democratizing.

00:23:24: and in one actually my last book that i mentioned...i write books..I write lots of books!

00:23:31: I saw

00:23:31: it on your LinkedIn!

00:23:32: Yes

00:23:33: so a blunt book pitch.

00:23:35: So My latest book out is called The Disruption Fallacy which all about this simple principle.

00:23:43: Don't try to disrupt and change everything if small changes work, but this democratization principle was I guess first formally acknowledged by a Mr Jensen's paradox.

00:24:00: And so he was a, I think you would now call him a journalist in the let's say early nineteenth century.

00:24:09: I should know the year but i forgot.

00:24:11: and what he saw is when The So-called Watts steam engine Was introduced which was much more efficient Steam Engine than the original say versions.

00:24:20: to his surprise He saw use of coal go up rather then down.

00:24:24: Which if we have A more efficient machine how Is this possible?

00:24:27: Then Of course he realized that Of course, per steam engine the use goes down but now suddenly way more industries can afford a steam engine because it's way cheaper to run.

00:24:40: And this is true for everything even like... This is true let say for fax machines or personal computers and mobile phones.

00:24:50: I mean i'm old enough to remember that only people with mobile phones were bankers working in the Gordon Geckos of the world when it was really expensive, but again technology democratizes.

00:25:01: That's what it does and I think the one thing though is you cannot really predict how it will democratize because that's often surprising Because of what i realized in my book When It Was Pulling Some Cases Together.

00:25:16: Also For The Book If You Look At The First Supercomputer... ...It Was Actually On The Moonlander In The Late Sixties.

00:25:25: Now even if you think about what futurism was back then, people thought we were all going to have our personal moon lander.

00:25:34: No!

00:25:34: We had a personal supercomputer in the pocket.

00:25:39: but I guess the principle remains true it always democratizes and becomes available for more people.

00:25:43: If your looking at solutions that make them happen.

00:25:48: this is no different from when you are looking on a circular solution Or a healthier solution, or whatever the purpose is you have behind your investment strategy.

00:25:57: This is a truth that just holds.

00:26:01: Also in your LinkedIn profile I saw That You Walk The Talk.

00:26:07: So right?

00:26:08: Yes!

00:26:08: I hope so.

00:26:09: Well i'm putting my money where My Mouth Is.

00:26:12: We know a lot of the Unitarian investment we've done with our own money, when were still raising money.

00:26:20: But on that topic is there one sustainable habit you implement into your daily life?

00:26:25: That you can share

00:26:27: to

00:26:27: inspire us?

00:26:28: so as well?

00:26:30: A very easy one for me because I live in The Netherlands and almost never drive!

00:26:34: I only drive if there's literally almost no way to get there with public transport.

00:26:39: Again, it is easy to save when you're in Holland because of the good public transport system.

00:26:45: but i must say also that once a week... I wonder why do people do this?

00:26:53: It was just so awful!

00:26:55: The congestion is so bad.

00:26:57: So true..I enjoy time on the train listen to a podcast which, well listening to the podcasts you can do in a car but reading is really hard.

00:27:09: Yeah

00:27:10: yeah when you're in the car it's.

00:27:14: and uh I have never bought a new car okay only second hand and the one we have now has been going for twelve years at five hundred.

00:27:24: so its super economical.

00:27:27: And the people say, why are you not driving electric?

00:27:30: Well Why would I destroy this car?

00:27:31: already

00:27:32: have something good.

00:27:33: Yeah

00:27:34: Which is which runs an amazing mileage?

00:27:36: Ways nothing

00:27:38: yeah

00:27:38: and probably has another ten good years in it.

00:27:41: perfectly fine

00:27:41: great.

00:27:42: and apart from your own book The disruption fallacies there's something You read listened to lately or saw that got you excited.

00:27:50: In a space of sustainability.

00:27:52: There was a book It's called The Hungry City, which is not specifically about sustainability.

00:28:00: But if you want to understand how the food industry works and what the implications are for making it more sustainable... An incredible book because it shows how the Food Industry has basically grown in this sort of symbiotic way with cities growing.

00:28:17: And what allows cities to grow Is that they can feed them And this has been true for literally thousands of years.

00:28:26: Cities, you could say originally only grew to as much as you can have fields around it feeding it whether its livestock or plant based.

00:28:41: So that goes all the way back to ancient Rome which required a whole Mediterranean basically feed through two large cities now where infrastructure for food has become global.

00:28:54: And it shows you just also how hard is to make more sustainable, because the size and hunger of cities

00:29:02: requires

00:29:04: food from very far away.

00:29:06: I think that every square kilometre city needs a hundred square kilometres of agricultural land which is why... It's not impossible at all But it becomes a bit complicated when people want fresh food.

00:29:24: Yeah, and local food?

00:29:25: Local is not going to work until you that!

00:29:27: Well actually can't work into some degree... It just doesn't look like what people think.

00:29:31: it looks like.

00:29:32: People think of happy little farmer in the plot Micro-managing three cows and pig

00:29:39: In

00:29:40: a few carrots.

00:29:41: The way this works will work.

00:29:43: What do we see on the Netherlands?

00:29:45: The second largest food exporter?

00:29:48: Vertical farming, okay I hear it.

00:29:52: Again i come from the Netherlands where just don't understand why you would need it because we are the second largest food exporter on the planet.

00:29:59: and even if you look in The Netherlands its a tiny area were all that food comes from.

00:30:03: And It's not vertical Its just horizontal farming but it is tuned to perfection.

00:30:10: So

00:30:10: again

00:30:13: optimizing the process.

00:30:15: But there was very long answer.

00:30:16: your question You like

00:30:18: wrong answers.

00:30:19: Yeah, sorry should I be more compact?

00:30:21: No!

00:30:21: Okay but it's a fascinating read because... and i thought i knew the food industry a little through my work in consumer goods which is a lot of the work isn't food.

00:30:32: But It gave me a whole new level of insight that we basically eat what the machine can produce The Machine being everything from highly defined, sort of what's the size of the carrot that is going to make it through this system and end up in a supermarket shelf.

00:30:48: To where supermarkets will actually be willing sell you.

00:30:51: It's an logistics

00:30:52: machine.

00:30:53: That's were our food comes from.

00:30:55: I'm excited to read because my introduction kind of sustainability also came from switching my diet And that was like my entry point into thinking about daily habits how they affect Everything around me, how can I optimize my process kind of?

00:31:15: Nowhere near perfect.

00:31:16: Of course.

00:31:16: But you know we get things from the supermarket that are imported and

00:31:20: yeah

00:31:21: You can't really change it because sometimes I do like a banana.

00:31:26: Yeah And it doesn't grow in Europe.

00:31:27: so

00:31:30: Then again never say never.

00:31:33: also true.

00:31:34: We like to close off the podcast with one question, which is if you were to create a collage image of everything.

00:31:42: You connect and associate with sustainability and could hang it in a museum of your choice?

00:31:48: What would be depicted on that collage?

00:31:51: Oh wow!

00:31:52: A

00:31:53: little creative exercise.

00:31:55: It can be word images whatever you'd like.

00:32:00: I think they...it will have to represent huge scale, which maybe sounds paradoxical.

00:32:11: But I think the reality of The Modern World is things happen at scale and whether you talk about global supply chains –which are huge- or even local supply chains–are still very big!

00:32:32: So my collage would definitely show factories with huge numbers of similar things coming out.

00:32:40: Because that's where you could say the fight is won, basically understanding manufacturing because I live in a world of circular economy and physical goods And... ...I think there would be something showing loops obviously But i'd have to find a way to express This will my challenge at this collage to make this sense of scale, because again even local what everyone knows is the path to go still needs to be a significant scale.

00:33:15: but it feel like a good place to go too.

00:33:19: Because It Is actually possible To Make Better Product That Uses Less Material and Less Energy.

00:33:25: Its Just Such A Different Way Of Thinking About How To Make Products Coming Out These Decades Of Abundance And Just Not Caring Too Much.

00:33:35: It's yeah, it's a maybe my reference again.

00:33:39: I'll super long answer.

00:33:40: I'm so sorry

00:33:40: Don't be pleased.

00:33:41: in

00:33:41: my reference are probably would look for a lot of sort of Japan oriented Yeah visuals because japan as an island culture?

00:33:49: Yes extremely efficient culture Extremely high quality-of-life Extremely strong and reuse rebuild regenerate.

00:33:58: Yeah,

00:33:59: I think they have Already sort of taken that step where let's say definitely the western world, using word Western more sort of as an idea rather than a geography.

00:34:12: Whereas we're just embarking on that.

00:34:15: so yeah Japanese factories lots of people being meticulous in no waste anyway not doing things unless you know it will actually be used somewhere.

00:34:26: Yeah That is probably what my collage would look like.

00:34:28: Great

00:34:28: Thank You for putting so much thought into and also was pleasure to speak with you.

00:34:34: Thank you for your time.